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EDITOR:
Steve Van Nattan

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FUNDAMENTAL BAPTIST POPE,
DAVID CLOUD

By Steve Van Nattan

 

This is how a faithful Bible teacher, a defender of the King James Bible, trades the plain meaning of the Bible for 1700 years of moldy tradition, form, and ritual.


This teaching is full of extra-biblical tradition, and in that regard it is heresy.

David Cloud has been a blessing to many Christians in the past as he taught from the King James Bible and defended it as the Word of God in English.

He has been a missionary, and his works go before him. But, in the recent past he has taught that a house church is a wicked invention because it is not organized around traditional Baptist forms and traditions.

David Cloud also promotes the alleged "Man of God" tradition as the title of the pastor of the local church. There is NO place in the Bible where the pastor (a title used only once in the New Testament) is called a man of God. The Bible refers to all born again men in the Lord's Church as "The man of God".

This is the old saw from clear back in the Roman Catholic era where the priest, bishop, cardinal, and Pope are all promoted and the "men of God," and all other men in the local church are to lock step with this man and take orders from him.

David Cloud has a fetish obsession with organizing local churches. Jesus, Paul, Peter, and the other Apostles never organized a local church-- that was the work of the Holy Spirit. If they had organized the local church along the lines of Cloud's and the Pope's notion of organization, there would be no Church today. Why? Answer: Organization is the work of men, and it is always deadening and dull. To the degree to which a local church is organized by human inventions, documents, and outside notions, that is the degree to which that local church is dead and has lost its first love.


LET US EXAMINE THE ORGANIZATION APPROACH
TO THE NEW TESTAMENT CHURCH

The word "organize" and all its derivatives are NOT found anywhere in the Bible. Pope Cloud uses the word "organize" six times in the above web page. Notice that Cloud wants to organize the local church "along biblical lines" but only as long as the pastor rules.

Pope Cloud makes the pastor into an elder, which he is NOT according to the Greek New Testament (more below on this). God forbid his people to be numbered, and God organized them. In the Old Testament God gave the order that Moses and others were to use in organizing Israel, and in the New Testament God organized the Church by written precept and by the actions of the Apostles.

YOU MUST SEE THE ULTIMATE BAPTIST CHURCH ORGANIZATIONAL CHART

God made no reference to outside denominations and authorities other than the Apostles in the Epistles they wrote. Everything added be late great Popes, whether the Roman Whore's Pope, or Fundamental Baptist Popes, is mongrel organization. Paul never included an organiational chart for any church he started. Why do we have these freaks today? It is because humans love to climb us the organization. lucifer lead the way when he said, before the creation, "I shall be like the Most High."

Ephesians 4:7 (KJV) But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

More on this below-- only this now-- dear Pope Cloud, sir, pray tell what organization do you imagine you and your fair haired popelettes need to add that will increase unity in the Church, increase the work of the ministry, advance the edifying of the Body, better perfect the saints, and bring a fuller measure of the Body in Christ? What is the Church lacking that Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost missed up front in 90 AD? Huh? Speak up, you are mumbling ex cathedra again, more Papal bull I gather, something for the strawberries I trust.

1 Corinthians 12:7 (KJV) But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

I see that the Holy Ghost gives the gifts to be used for edification. He also gave the Word by inspiration. So, Pope Cloud would defend the Word against adding, but he adds "organization" to the work of the Holy Ghost. I dare say the Holy Ghost is not in as much desperate need of assistance as Cloud thinks.

1 Corinthians 11:33 (KJV) Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another.
34 And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come.

The Apostle set things in order, not the people. So, once the Apostle was gone, and the canon of the Word of God was complete, we have NO business adding anything to the Apostolic model found in the Epistles.

Colossians 2:5 (KJV) For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.

The Apostle was setting the order and approving it.

Titus 1:5 (KJV) For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:

Elders set in order other elders under Apostolic authority. Today, elders should raise elders to authority, but we hold elections and destroy the work by electing vain and silly fools to rule.

 

 

The Apostles, under inspiration, gave us ALL the instructions for order in the Church of Jesus Christ in the New Testament. All added devices, like local church membership lists, Roberts Rules of Order, numberings, roll calls, quorums, board meeting, minutes, record keeping, constitutions, by-laws, Democracy, and all other mongrel human tricks, are additions which create all manner of chaos in local churches. No denomination is more guilty of this adding of multitudinous machinations than the Fundamental Baptists. The "one mind" Paul insisted on is blown into a cocked hat, and the saints have to learn all manner of organizational devices which feed the pride of the flesh and make New Testament Christianity virtually impossible.

These preachers wave the King James Bible and defend its infallibility, but they make it of none effect by their New Worldly Order in the local church.

Thus, Pope David Cloud's "organization" of the local church is greatly offended by the simplicity of the House Church movement because all the trash and trappings of his Popedom are at risk if he admits that House Churches are the only manifestation of New Testament Christianity and polity in the earth today.

Please notice the Organizational Chart at the top of this section. This is taken from a real church in New England. Jesus is Head of the Church, but he has his own box. The rest of the organization is in a separate box. How very much like Fundamental Baptists today. How utterly like Laodicea, right? By the way, the chart I picked is a Congregational chart. In a Baptist chart the pastor would be at the top between the two boxes and not in a box so that he was totally independent of Jesus Christ AND the congregation.

 

Here is David Cloud on pastoral rule

"We look for pastoral rule as opposed to deacon or trustee rule. The Bible never says a deacon is a ruler and there are no trustee church rulers described in the New Testament. The most important thing to look for in a church's leadership is their qualification according to Bible standards. God has very high standards for pastors and deacons (1 Timothy 3; Titus 1--exemplary family, no divorce, personal godliness, financially responsible, good testimony in the community, etc.). It is impossible for a church to be strong without qualified leadership. It has wisely been said that everything rises and falls on leadership. The pastors' and deacons' wives and children must also meet the standards of 1 Timothy 3."
David Cloud

To prove his Papal aspirations, Cloud has exalted the Pastor. The word "Pastor" is only found in the New Testament once. In that text, Ephesians 4:11, the pastor is told to minister, which is "to serve" in the Greek meaning, and he is told to edify the saints.

PASTOR- G4166 poimen
poimen poy-mane' of uncertain affinity; a shepherd (literally or figuratively):--shepherd, pastor.

Ruling, as in "Pastoral Rule" in mongrel church government today, is not pictured in the word "shepherd". Shepherds lead, shepherds follow, shepherds feed, and shepherds sheer the sheep. The only one of these most Baptist pastors have mastered is sheering sheep, and mighty close at that. They leave no wool for the winter months. The Good Shepherd did not RULE his disciples and speak and teach in the demanding jack boot manner of the modern Baptist pastor. So, the pastor of Ephesians 4 is NOT what we confront at the church house today. We have a hybrid popelette who demands absolute obedience, which is not in Jesus, Paul, James, Peter, or any other Church Age revelator.

Here is the ONLY place where a pastor is mentioned. He was given to the Lord's Church to bring the saints into unity and maturity (vs. 13) by ministering and edifying the Body of Christ with an emphasis on teaching. Nowhere in the New Testament are the pastors introduced as rulers. Nowhere does the New Testament say a pastor is de facto an elder. A pastor is a pastor and teacher, and that is all, and only in this text. In fact, this Epistle of Paul is early in the New Testament church era, and his later Epistles make no mention of pastors-- only elders and deacons. When writing to Timothy and other church leaders, he tells them over and over to teach and appoint other elders. Peter even calls himself an elder late in the New Testament era-- 1 Peter 5:1, and John, in his last Epistle to the church, calls himself an elder-- 3 John 1:1

Ephesians 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

Again, notice that the word "pastor" does not have a comma after it. The King James translators were ten times over the grammarians that modern junk bible translators are. The reason there is no comma after "pastor" is and "teachers" completes the definition of that office in the Greek grammar. Teaching, edifying, and perfecting are the ONLY work of a pastor-- NOT RULING. Who rules? Answer: elders.

1 Timothy 5:17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
18 For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.
19 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.

Ironically, Timothy was told by Paul, over and over, to teach and study the Word and build up the saints. Timothy then was the most obvious example of a pastor in Paul's ministry, though Paul never called Timothy a pastor. There were elders (PLURAL) in the church Timothy pastored. Paul was a bright fellow, unlike modern Baptist Popes, and he used the plural for elders on purpose. The New Testament churches had a plurality of elders, AND THEY RULED THE LOCAL CHURCH. Pope David Cloud wants us to ignore the plural usage in the passage and pretend that these elders were pastors of several churches. BAH, and double BAH. Paul never implies that anywhere in his Epistles.

We conclude that at the end of the Apostolic Church Age Timothy was not seen as a pastor by Paul but as a leading elder. Thus, Timothy was to appoint elderS, and he was to teach and disciple them so that the church would have good leadership in the event he had to leave or was killed for the faith. A dictatorship pastor like we have in Baptistism today would have been a terrible liability. If the popelette were killed for his faith, there would be no leadership. That is how it is with dictatorships. They collapse when the Imperial Wizard dies or jumps the committee.

 

 

If ruling were as important to the role of a pastor as modern jack boot pastors claim, there would be many citations of the word "pastor" in the Greek New Testament, and examples of ruling would be there. The Holy Ghost does NOT give us one word in the Bible for us to build on. He adds line upon line and precept upon precept. The proof of an apostle, deacon, or elder's office and work is abundantly illustrated and defined. Pastor is there ONCE, and this is very good reason to assume that a pastor in the early church was NOT the central figure and probably ceased to exist as the later epistles defined church leadership. You may not like this, but that would only be because your are a Nicolaitan and love to rule the people and sheer sheep. Selah.

Rulers, according to Paul and other Apostles in later letters to churches, are to be elders. "Elder" simply means aged and mature. Ruling of the Lord's Church would fall to the Elders in context, and they ARE spoken of as ruling in I Timothy 5:17. The apologetic of the Papal Baptists like Cloud will than be, "Well, pastors are elders." This must come ex cathedra as a Baptist Papal Bull (how true), for the Bible nowhere says a pastor is an elder. So, Pope Cloud, and virtually all Baptists, reject elders, who are mentioned many times in Apostolic teaching, and exalt the pastor, who is mentioned only once. This is Satanic exegesis. This is blaspheming the Word of God just as certainly as if they burned it in a fire place.

In fact, of the list in Ephesians 4:12, several are gone, and were gone in Paul's day in the latter end of the Apostolic Church era. It is entirety possible, given Paul's lack on interest in the title "pastor," that the Holy Ghost meant for us to understand that the only leaders Christ wants to rule in any fashion in the local church are elders and deacons. This, though it fits well with the facts of Scripture, is declared to be blasphemy to the Papal Baptist Popelettes who love to have the preeminence.

Who is a deadon? We need to see that his role is well defined. Here is the definition of "Deacon" in the Greek:

DEACON-- G1247 diakoneo
diakoneo dee-ak-on-eh'-o from 1249; to be an attendant, i.e. wait upon (menially or as a host, friend, or (figuratively) teacher); technically, to act as a Christian deacon:--(ad-)minister (unto), serve, use the office of a deacon.

Please read the above definition of "Pastor" and "Deacon" and carefully compare. One is a servant, and the other is a teacher. If there were Pastors in the latter days of the Apostolic church era, Paul gave them instruction in Ephesians to teach, and that is what a Pastor will be doing. Not ruling. The Elders rule, and elders are NOT Pastors. Note now the total dissimilarity in definition between Elder on the one hand, and Pastor and Deacon on the other:

ELDERS-- H2205 zaqen
zaqen zaw-kane' from 2204; old:--aged, ancient (man), elder(-est), old (man, men and...women), senator.

There is more linguistic historic validity in a woman being an Elder than in a Pastor ruling anything. In fact, Elders ruled in the Apostolic church:

1 Timothy 5:17 (KJV) Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.

Pastors did not rule in the Apostolic church. If you do not have Elders ruling, and you have a Pastor ruling, your assembly does not have complete Apostolic church leadership.

David Cloud is a smart little Pope, he is clever at inventing things in the Bible that are not there, and he again shows how very important he thinks he is. He is a jack boot in the truest sense of the word, for he is teaching heresy to the saints and setting himself up in the place of God like Pope Benedict VIII.

VIDEO:

HOW TO ORGANIZE YOUR CHURCH IN THIRTY DAYS
What a blessing. This aged (?) apostle of organization uses the authority of your car and family as evidence that organizing is a biblical principle. He references the Bible, but he did not read of quote one verse of Scripture. And he wants us to organize our passion. What a pity Christ did not organize his passion better. He seemed to let humanity call the shots, and he was just very lucky any of it turned out right. Paul- He did not organize his ministry very well. He wandered from place to place and left town just when the local church he planted was ready for organizing by one of these smart aleck YouTube gurus.


By the way, would you buy organizing software from a man who piles his books on a chair?

 

I concede that there are times when a bit of organization would have been in order:

 

LINKS:

THE INNER RING- This article defines the arrogant process that causes David Cloud to promote his teaching on the local church.

This is the ultimate in human reasoning that is damned to hell in a hand basket.

 

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